Godly love will bring up a conversation that every person in a group, no matter the size will bend the concept numerous ways to suit their fanciful beliefs.  The following movie depicts the images I get from Christ’s teachings.

Click here

Matt 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

 

James 2:
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

1 John 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

Just shut up and listen…

Things you can learn when you shut up and listen, observe, and accept.

The creek is barely a trickle. I’m sure before the city was built around it, that it was a home for fish and wildlife frequented it daily for life.

Today the city bustles around it. From where I sit, I see an irregularly square patch of color under the little bit of water flowing. It’s laying over the stones like a shadow, but it’s brownish green coloring shows that it’s being subsumed by the nature around it. An unnatural invasion being reclaimed by nature itself. Perhaps a napkin or a piece of paper, but moss is growing over it, and slime, and slowly it’s being eaten and resubmitted to nature. May it have a more productive benefit in it’s next life.

On the bank where the grass loses it’s dominance to the flowing water you have a whole community of life. Three different types of grass exist, a broad bladed grass sticks out every little bit in the skinny hair like lighter green grass that covers most of the area. And another grass that grows like a stalk and unfolds at maturity pokes up here and there as well. All crammed into such a tiny space, no battles between them. They find their place and coexist. There are some close to the ground weeds that grow and are blossoming here and there. If each different colored blossom is a different weed, then there are 9 different types in this small 20′ square area. And there are the occasional long stemmed weeds blossoming here and there, sometimes we call them flowers.

Outside of this 20 sq ft area the city adds it’s contribution. The occasional Styrofoam cup, aluminum beer tab, soda bottle, etc…

This is man’s contribution to God’s creation. Which when it was created we were told to care for it. And now we rape this creation to suit our own comforts, desires, and aspirations. Rather than being part of this creation, we have set ourselves apart as more than the creation and foregone our reciprocal duty to her. Where we had an obligation to assist her so she could flourish, we constantly take from her, mar her, abuse her and take her for granted.

The Church, in today’s world, is the same. Where we are to be part of the world, fitting into her, and helping by service to her, we have become standoffish and bossy, trying to tell her how to do it herself. Her in this case being our interpersonal relations in society.

Rather than loving our neighbor we tell them how they should love others and sit on our ass.

Rather than feeding the poor, we try to legislate them out of our line of sight.

Rather than getting involved with young men and women to avoid unmarried, unplanned, unexpected pregnancies, we choose to stand at an abortion clinic and make an already traumatized young girl scarred even more for life. In the future, every other Christian that approaches her will be met with disdain and unbelief of a loving God. Instead they will know God as a Benito Mussolini hateful entity.

The church’s role in society, mirrors man’s scars left upon God’s creation.

And while we can clean up our footprint in the world, the scars we make with society will grow exponentially each generation.

As the Church feels the impact of already having generations of negative presence, her response is to get HARDER in the positions that have led to this situation in the first place.

If you don’t stand up, and create a microrevolution among your people of influence in the Church, you’ll see a Church that is dying irreversibly before you pass on.

What will YOU do about it? Become a more hardcore fundamentalist, or learn to Love neighbor and God as you were instructed?

My personal disclaimer:

Let me be clear…  Maskchange

I don’t care what you think you know, or what you believe, I care about how it manifests in your life.

In this venue we only have words, and you can say what you will, but even when you carefully word your comments, you still reveal things about the inside of you that you hide behind the mask.

Most of you, present a carefully constructed mask to the world, and call it christian (as I’m addressing christians). And you think a better Christian is one with a better mask. That’s like saying the best skunk is the one with the most perfume on it. (two nasty odors, not just one.. the problem is there, but now there are two problems.)

Your mask is an orchestration of your devising. It doesn’t reflect a change in you, it reflects your efforts at control. If you have to control your heart, by definition you are bridling it, but it is not changed.

God wants a changed heart, and He says HE does the changing. Go look up “heart of stone” in Ezekiel’s thoughts. If you continually make a mask and cling to it, you never let God pass to the heart to work on it.

You can only experience that change, if you stop acting, and start living, transparently. Let your emotions show, let your thoughts be known, and learn where you are wrong. The more transparent you are with your heart, the more changing and the faster it will occur.

You have to live a real life, not act a life for the world to see. The more you act or try to live up to the mask you think you should portray, the better the mask is made, but the person inside is left stagnant and wanting.

The Church is filled beautiful masks. Theology has gone from what is God’s plan for me, to how Christian can I act? And the arguments aren’t of faith anymore, but on who made the better mask.

R C SPROUL on sinless perfection.

R C Sproul has a comment on the Heresy of Perfectionism I’d like to address.  Unlike some of the other conversations I have seen, he is not as offensive in his presumptions as Got Questions and the like have been.  RC S manages to have a conversation, not a lecture.  He’s not on a soapbox as the others were, in my perception, so I found it an entertaining read.

I disagree with many of his presumptions.
OK all but one or two.
But I can respect how he got where he was and he presented it fairly so I hope to give him the same respect.

His article can be found here,  <<<click me to visit>>> .

I will post a paragraph of his, and my observations.  I should note, he is addressing a particular type of “sinless perfectionism” I find appalling as well.  And while I’d argue with him against someone preaching that type of thought, our arguments would not be the same.  However his observations would apply universally to the “sinless perfection” generic crowd.   For the record, my comments to RC S would also refute the crowd he is addressing.   I guess that makes me a heterodoxical nightmare.
—————–
Para 1:

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism.(1) Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism,(2) a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.(3)

1)  It is never a point of strength to open with an assumed right position.  It reveals a smugness or arrogance to your thinking.

  • a) “Two types” is a bit misleading, as it implies opposition.
  • b)  Scripturally both would be Christian.  (not a term I am fond of)  Paul explained the milk                     and meat, Christians.  He showed us there are imperfect, and perfect Christians.  The issue               is much less with IF they are, but on what that means when it says, “perfect”.  Any cheap                   concordance will show you it is not a without flaw, Utopian flavor as is assumed in these                    conversations.

2)  “Elitism in -perfectionism-”  Is an interesting objection coming from the Calvinist camp.   A group that regularly produces comments about the being “elected” and others aren’t.  That, often, no matter how much they deny that they intend it that way, are elitist by nature.

  • a)  There is no elitist view if you understand the meaning of the Greek word for Perfect.                            Teleios has no Utopian, without flaw, flavor to it in the Bible, nor in English at the KJV  era.
  • b)  It simply meant, finished, complete, mature, grown up.  Once you take the knee jerk fear out of the word, you can reason with the verses and get a better view of the message.
  • c)  There is nothing elite in assuming God will do what he said He would do, unless you                             assume He is not honest, not capable, or not willing.  The question becomes did he say he                 would do it, and if so what path does travel?

3)  “Smugness and Pride creeps in” If this is indicative of failure, then John Calvin  has proven he is the wrong JC to take heed to.
++++
Para 2
The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind.(1) Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.(2)

1)  “Distorts the human mind”  As does Calvinism.  That is not a very unique argument as it applies against them, and most of Christianity as well.  There are a lot of arrogant people with distorted minds and attitudes in the Church.  Most people think it’s everyone but themselves.  Which proves my point, usually.

2)  “Delusions to think we have reached perfect”…  The first thing to consider is, “did God say He would get us there or not?”  The second thing is, “should we believe every ridiculous metaphor we read in the Bible as literal?”  The tangents are, Gideon was given ridiculous commands, 300 men armed with Kazoos and crock pots and defeated an army of 27K or there about.  The biggest tangent is, why do we believe the metaphor of raising from the dead, if incredulous claims we can’t accomplish on our own are to be discredited?

  • a)  Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. (NASB)
  • b)  Teleios/Perfect merely means to the finished state.  What is the finished state is the          question.  Not if someone can achieve it.  He’s not the God of the Red Herring.
  • c)  Matthew 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.       This chapter speaks of how to love, and is saying your love should be as complete as             the example He had just given of the Father’s love; even for His enemies.
  • d)  Or when Jesus asked the RYR if he would be perfect, meaning complete… Jesus saw a           way, and taught to reach for it and go there.   OUR job should be to find the way, not               say Jesus taught the wrong message.
  • e)  We have delusions of thinking we have become perfect in RC Sproul’s eyes.  What does he think of the man claiming he will be raised from the dead after he has passed?  Is that not MORE incredulous?  Which is more believable, a man learns how to live as Jesus taught us to, or a man will raise from the dead? (Unless you don’t believe you’ll raise and only pay lip service towing the company line…
  • f)  Is it more incredulous than, Gideon send the army home, disarm the remaining 300 and at dawn attack them with crock pots and kazoos?  If RC Sproul was Gideon, would he say “yes Lord”, or would he say it can’t happen and call the army back.  Do you do what HE says or not?
  • g)  After admitting in Paragraph 1 the path to perfection is done BY THE SPIRIT in the views of those he criticizes.  He then comments, “WE HAVE ACHIEVED”.
  • h)  Doesn’t sound like RC S believes the Spirit really interacts in our lives at all, if he                       thinks credit goes to the Spirit but it’s still up to YOU to achieve.

Scripture says the the Spirit keeps you from the lusts of the flesh, Gal 5:16.
The seed of God keeps you from sinning. 1 John 3:9
Christ Himself in you 1 John 5:18.
The flesh is gone so the hindrance is removed by Christ.  Col 2:11
HE changes your heart from self serving stone, to serve others flesh, Eze 24-27 ish.
Yet RC S considers it’s up to US to achieve it?

 

  • i)  Perhaps it’s hard to imagine, because in RC S’s theology, God does nothing, and he does it                                all himself?
  • j)  Who parted the Red Sea, God or Moses.   Both did works. (food for thought.)

++++
Para 3

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions.(1) To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

1)  “Two deadly delusions”.

  • a)  “Convince us we have achieved” But it’s not about what we can do.  Those he addresses           in his example probably deserve this chastisement.  The Biblical analysis avoids it.                And for the record we don’t raise ourselves from the dead, either.
  • b)  “over estimate our moral performance”  False dilemma.  Christian perfection isn’t about        my performance.  This would only come from someone focused on their performance.         It is about learning to love neighbor correctly.  Something Christ commanded, not                 suggested.  Do you doubt Him?  Do you doubt His performance?
  • c)  “Underestimate the law” It’s not about keeping the law.

————-1)  It’s about learning to love.
————-2)  It’s not about obedience.  You run to where you look.  You choose if you look to                                   love or obedience.  Whichever one you focus on, is the one that gets all your                                           mindset.  If you look to be obedient, you take away from the love neighbor                                             mindset.  If you fail to love as Jesus commanded, you fail to be in God or Him in                                   you. 1 John 4:16-18
————-3)  See the post on Love or Obedience, immediately before this one.

  • d)  He references it’s like Antinomianism.   The person he spoke to might get there, but the                     scriptural text on the topic does not need to assume that corner.

++++
Para 4

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law.(1-5)  We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience(6) To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin.(7) Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.(8)

1)  The Law was to the Jews, not the Gentiles.  Christ’s church is ran after Melchizedek’s                             which was before the Jews or Gentiles existed.  To impose Jewish covenental laws on                          Melchizedek’s Church is very presumptuous.  In Christ’s Church there is no Jew or                               Gentile.  Your relationship with GOD is not dependent on your achieving unity with the law,           so it is inconsistent to apply it here.
2)  To be with Him, the focus is on getting the Love right, not on being obedient.
All of the law is kept in the commandments Love neighbor, Love God.
3)  Paul speaks of looking at the race before him not to what lays behind.  If you are atoned for             you need not worry about the sin.  You need to focus on being changed, not trying to usurp           power from God and change yourself.  You look to the change, not obedience.  If you are                 changed, you will be obedient, but you could be obedient and lack change.
4)   1 John 4:16 without the law, you do not have relationship with Him.  If you were 100                          percent obedient, but did not have the love, you did not meet God’s change.  What good is               your altar call/sinner’s prayer?
5)  1 Cor 13 explains the importance of the right type of love.
6)  “we must lie about the law and our obedience”.   No sir, you must lie about your relation to              God to maintain your position.  While the man addressed by RC S in this argument he                          presents is deserving of this chastisement, the Biblical arguments for Christian Maturity are            not.   If you love your neighbor you keep the law.  If you get the love right, the obedience                follows.  If you look to obedience you ignore the singular focus on love.  According to 1 john 4, RC S’s focus on obedience shows his fear of punishment, and that reveals his love is not                      perfected.  He would be better served learning that love, if this is true.
7)  “We quench the Spirit when He convicts us of sin”.  The assumption here, is that you sin.  If He         can do what He wrote He would do, and you did not sin, what quenching would you be                      doing?   At this point, you are obeying the one inside of you.  Rom 8:4-7.  The Flesh would be          gone and the Spirit indwelling.  Rom 8:9A  (I am assuming, RC S would argue the flesh is                    always there until you die, which would contradict Paul here and other places.)
8)  “Makes us not spirit filled but spirit quenchers”.  The error in thinking is the assumption you            sin forever, rather than making an argument from scripture.  The scripture answers the                    assumption by disqualifying it.  The assumption contradicts scripture by being antithetical to        scripture’s claims.  Quite literally ignoring some and needing to rewrite others.
++++
Para 5

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection.(1) Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise.(2)  If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.(3)

1)   Can we see this in scripture somewhere?  It’s not there, but can we try?
2)  The idea RC S expresses is that you will continually grow in your awareness of sinning.  This           presupposes you will sin.  This is the intellectual equivalent of, “Uh Uh, MY WAY”.
3)  With this statement I would agree.  This is exactly what Paul addresses in the Phil 3 vs posted          above.  He doesn’t consider he has arrived there, he doesn’t look at “his accomplishment”, but        rather assumes he’s not there and keeps his head down and focused.  Those who are there like        himself should keep this attitude.  If they change it, God will change them back.

**In RC S’s world, Paul is a mess.  In Rom 7:5 he is not in the flesh.  At the last part of Romans 7 he is battling the flesh and it has control over him.  In Romans 8:9 he discusses people who are not in the flesh, but are indwelled by the Spirit, in Col 2:11 he shows how the flesh is removed by the circumcision of Christ, in Eph 4:11-15 Paul writes the mature/perfect man is to be as spiritually mature as Jesus the Christ was Himself on earth.  We can’t trust Paul for anything if we adopt RC S’s views.
++++
Para 6

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing”(1) and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism.(2) My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.(3)

1)  Full disclosure, the “second blessing” folks, are pretty out there for me.  I think they are further off than RC S’s and my views are….   What would a sinless perfect person look like and how would you know?  I’d contend you wouldn’t know.  They wouldn’t brag about it, preach about it etc.  They’d be a nice person, but lots of people are nice peeps.  They would be doing the Eph 2:10 they were saved to do.  Those works suit their gifts, and would give them peace, love, joy, etc…  They wouldn’t have time to talk about sinless whatever, they would be too busy being God’s instrument of righteousness on earth.
2)  This is addressed above, and if you like contact me I can address it more.  How is Paul who was not in the flesh in Rom 7:5 now struggling with the flesh in Rom 7 last third of the chapter?   That’s like saying you were drowning in the lake and still are now that you are out of the lake…
3) More likely it’s a Historical Present Tense.  When a white politician is in a black congregational church, and he is saying we and us and such, do you assume he is Black?
++++
Para 7

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

*****Historical present tense, see arguments above.  This actually puts RC S in the precarious position, not the Christian Maturity crows.  RC takes a view that requires you to “work with the scripture” to get it to suit the conclusion he draws, rather than take it as read and assume a perfectly normal historical present tense.
++++
Para 8

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”

***** Phil 3, Paul was perfect.  The issue isn’t whether or not he was, it is what does the word Perfect mean.
++++

Para next

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love.(1) We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

1)  1 John 4:17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
If your beliefs of heaven and God revolve around sin, you are likely paying WAY too much attention to sin and miss the point.  On these two commandments lay the whole of the law….
++++++++++++

I am leaving this open from here on.  I think the most relevant objections have been addressed.

Enjoy, and

ask, seek, knock!!!

 

Love or Obedience

Which direction will you run?

Which direction will you run?

 

In 1984 one of the great theological movies of all time was released for public consumption.  Karate Kid, Ralph Macchio and the Gang.

There is a scene, that you may not have realized was a “God message”.  Daniel, the Macchio character wanted to learn Karate.  Mr. Miyagi finally agrees to teach him.  Daniel is UBER excited.  He shows up, fired up, ready to work, so Mr. Miyagi puts him to work.

Wax on, Wax off.

Daniel begins his confused training.

On the verge of mutiny Mr. Miyagi gives in to Daniel and stands before him and pops him one.  Daniel makes the wax on move, reflexively, without premeditation and blocks the move.

The lesson learned was muscle memory over premeditation.   You don’t have to understand, you have to react.

Jhn 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.KJV

Jhn 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.NASB
———————

A person might read these verses, and wanting to please God, work stringently at keeping His commandments.
….They would feel a sense of accomplishment, like when you buy the right gift for a friend, or answer the right answer on a test.
….That would please the person who was obedient.
….But, would it please God?

The verse has two dominant ways you can interpret it.

1) If you love God you’ll focus your life on obedience as a primary objective.

2) If you love God your changed heart will by default keep the commandments.

3) The first is an accomplishment of self.
…..The second is an accomplishment of God in changing your heart.

4) Which one gives God the glory?

When one’s life becomes focused on the obedience aspect of the faith, their attention is on NOT sinning. They are driving a car 850 miles per hour and their goal is to not sin. That’s all they can look at because if your take your eyes off the goal you will falter and end up in a ditch.

When one’s life becomes focused on Loving God, sin is an issue of the past, you no longer fear punishment for what has been paid for, and your attention is focused solely on the love. The race you run is pointed in a different direction, than the race you run if you flee sin.

Phil 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet;
***but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind***
*** and reaching forward to what lies ahead,***
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

The focus of your heart, must be on the proper prize. You can choose God’s Glory or Your Glory — Him changing you, or You changing yourself.

Christ addresses this, albeit indirectly, at Mat 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The word for “poor” in Greek means dependent, beggared, needy. This would hint that the path of me willing myself to obedient, would be counterthetical to what is being taught. In fact being NEEDY/BEGGARED would relate to the story of the Rich Young Ruler and Him being Mature or Perfect. “If you would be mature/complete/perfect, give up all you have that will provide for you, die totally to your former life of self providence, and come to Christ, 100% needy, and dependent and rely/follow on Him.

Eze 11:19
“And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, NASB

Eze 36:26
“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. NASB

By all accounts, the focus is on the heart being changed, and life changing according to the heart.
vs
The mind getting STRONG and RESOLUTE and conquering the heart.

In fact …
Pro 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: KJV
… seems to confirm that. In this verse, the word for heart, is reference to your inner drive and motivation. In the first part of Romans 8:1-9 you see Paul discussing how a heart of flesh obeys the flesh, a heart indwelled by God’s Spirit obeys God’s spirit. (don’t trust me, go read them.)

The goal of God, is not to beat a man into submission, but to set them on a path where God will change their way of seeing and living life. The focus is on the changing of the heart.

When you make the focus on NOT sinning, you are teaching a person to fear sin. When they fear sin, it works against learning to love. FEAR is an emotion that is 100% self focused. It has a person looking to himself for solutions. John wrote, that if you fear sin you do not have perfect or finished love. 1 John 4:16-18.

People see the word PERFECT and dismiss the verse as unrealistic and start making excuses. The word means the completely mature, finished, type of Love God intends for you. If you fear sin, you lack that love.

If you lack that love, you lack God. God isn’t in you and you aren’t in God. Again, see 1 j 4:16-18.

If you take this verse and contemplate the impact it reveals, growing in love is your focus, not avoiding sin. If you avoided sin and lacked love you failed. Please consult 1 Cor 13.

If you have the love, then you will have the obedience.

Which direction do you wish to teach, preach or personally run yourself? There are 360 directions away from sin.
There is one direction to God.

The Sanctified, Perfect believer! Can you believe?

Sanctify… to set apart…..

The Laver in the Tent of Meeting was set part, it was therefore sanctified.

The Tent of meeting itself was sanctified. As was the ark of the Covenant.

When a person accepts Christ (whatever that broad stroke comment means) He has been sanctified by God and set apart. However is it the same as the Laver and the Tent? Nope, it’s just set apart. You could have the man sanctifiy his dishes, and set them apart for special occasions… The word simply means set apart.

Every time you see the word SANCTIFY does not mean it’s the same discussion, anymore than every time you see the word WET it means you are in the water. So determining HOW it’s set apart is going to be important in context.

So, Rom 6:22 says:
you are freed from sin, (sins are atoned for, what most people called saved)

Then become a slave to God (which means you are working at obedience)

Then you receive a benefit. (probably taught how to love is my best guess)

And THEN, not beofre you are Sanctified.

In this case, while it’s true you are sanctified, set apart when you are saved, or your sins are atoned for, in this case it speaks of a different sanctification.

Scripture talks about God will change us. I contend the Rom 6:22 verse’s use of “Sanctified” is a reference to when the person is changed, and it’s complete.

Paul says his job was to present those with him as “perfect” or complete when Christ returns. Numerous other places the completeness or perfection we are to become are mentioned.

Paul claims himself and others were perfect, or complete. Biggest problem here, si people see the old KJV word PERFECT, and think of it in a Utopian without error sense. That’s a recent meaning added to the word, like the last 125ish years or so. When the guys who did the work on Jim’s version existed, that “without flaw” part didn’t exist. Every time you see it in the Bible, you can assume it means a word (some will suit the circumstances better than others in context) from the family, full grown, complete, mature, finished, etc…. Which avoids UTOPIAN without flaw, and assumes the mistakes made growing up, to the point your growth is finished.

So, Bible has plenty to say we are to be perfect. If we can’t get past the “perfect” term, we’ll have to change what that means to suit our theology.
The question should become what IS perfect, in Biblical terms. Obviously no one but Christ will live sinless from birth to death. There is no Utopian flavor at all to that concept.

Before we move forward we need to agree or address first:

Sanctified, may not be the same context every time you see it used, even the word always means set apart. What is being set apart, OR HOW it is being set apart could change.

Teleios/Perfect/Mature doesn’t have a UTOPIAN, without error, flavor to it. But there are plans for perfection/maturation evident in the NT as there are those that have got there, and Paul admits it’s His job to get us there.

That should get us common ground to get through some of the key verses that will pop up here….

So, what does Perfect mean? While each author explains it in different terms and from different angles, and to varying degrees, the most obvious explanation, and from the most used Author Paul, is in EPhesians 4:11-13.

Ephesians 4:11-16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
>>>>>>This is those who are given the Spiritual Gifts of leadership. Not everyone has these gifts, just some. Like Discernment, teaching, not all have it so not all are expected to do it.<<<<<<

12 for the equipping of the saints
>>>>This is the individuals in the church<<<<<

for the work of service,
>>>>>> See Gal 5:6, Matt 25 last parable. <<<<<<

to the building up of the body of Christ;
>>>>>>>>>>This is the Church. the individuals build up the Church<<<<<

13 until we all attain
>>>This takes us back to the individuals doing the work.. so they work until they all….><<<<<<
to the unity of the faith, and of the [b]knowledge of the Son of God,
>>>>>Egads those people are going to learn through works, not bible study and sunday school….. those poor modern day Bereans, what ARE they missing out on?<<<<<<<

to a mature man,
>>> KING JAMES…..unto a perfect man,++++++
There is something to be completed in us through works led by the Church. It is expected… So how “perfect is “PERFECT” here? Paul further defines it.<<<<<<<<
to the measure
>>> IF Christ’s spiritual maturity was measured in a glass, our glass would be just as full as his was. the same measure.<<<<<<
of the stature
>>>>> As well as our glass would be the same size. Super Big Gulp vs Super Big Gulp. Not Big gulp vs Super Big Gulp. We are not less<<<<<<
which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
>>>> For anyone saying that it is the full and complete perfection, of only part of Christ. That’s the ONLY three ways saying as fully mature as CHrist could be belittled….
1) Not as much,
2) Not as big.
3) Only as much as part of his.

Each was reconciled by Paul for quadruple redundancy to prevent confusion. NOW people have to work really hard to screw this verse up. <<<<<<<

 

14 [d]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [e]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [f]speaking the truth in love, [g]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [h]by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Now, SINNING is not how this is accomplished, or rather not sinning. Blessed are the poor, dependent, needy in Spirit. Not the self made strong in spirit that overcomes sin.

1 John 4:16-18 says that if you do not have love, God isn’t in you and you aren’t in God. Does anyone wish to make the argument for, “you will “live in paradise” without being included with God or without His hand in your life? 🙂

No, so the single most important part of your faith, is that you do learn how to love as God does, Matt 5:43-48, not how we have “loved” growing up, which is primarily a self focused love, Sarx, Sinful nature, Flesh…

The key points in the last part of this discussion are:

1) We are to be Perfect.
2) What does Perfect look like?
3) It’s not by not sinning, but by learning how to love.

Conclusion:

This person would be MADE to be set apart, and would be made different. Not just perceived as different. Which is what it says in Isaiah when it says God will change your heart/mind. That is a real change. Not the change people claims happens when nothing has been changed. 🙂 When that change is made, and completed, you are mature, or perfect. This is Christian Maturity.